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The Salon: A Measurement of Charity

The Empirical plays host to another gathering of The Salon for a freshly old discussion. This time the topic of discussion springs from the white journals of the Sentinel's very own Archlector. Come and discuss the perception of charity and how we, as a people, provide it.


May 1, 2019, 9 p.m.

Hosted By



Roxana Merek Peri Cambria Marisol Vincenzo


The Salon


Arx - Ward of the Compact - The Empirical - The Salon

Largesse Level


Comments and Log


I enjoyed the Salon hosted by Marquis Hadrian Mazetti on charity. Indeed, I often enjoy the salons yet remain quiet so that I can hear what others will say.

The Marquis has done well in his work with ARRG. Some of the discussion turned to the matter of oversight on charitable organizations. The Marguis shared that he “considered it of vital importance to have someone who had lived the life of a refugee, to be a representative of it". That one was Jyri Tersk, now Lord Jyri Whitehawk. Credit was given to the Marquis for his foresight.

Vincenzo set forth the idea to collaborate on a work to make it easy for all charities to follow best practices for governance and oversight.

I find this to be compelling, for there was given an example of one who stole money intended for a charity, but I am also filled with concern. As a leader I am well aware of the abuses that come from micromanagement. One failure mode of more bureaucracy is micromanagement.

I did not wish to remain vague about such things, so I set forth an example during the Salon of the charitable work we do in Pearlspire and gave a scenario whereby one who is ignorant could fuck things up greatly due to ignorance and suspicion. I will set it forth here as well.

House seliki and her people do much to integrate former thralls into the economy of Pearlspire. If any wish to learn fishing and oystering, we work with the communities to have them become productive members of those communities. It so happens that I am an expert in the ways of those who sail, but for this example, I wish all to consider a case where an ignoramus with a bias to suspect misappropriation of resources is put in charge of efforts to incorporate new serfs into our fishing communities.

One who does not have the lived experience of fishing nor trust in the lived experiences of those who do may find it inscrutable that fisherfolk spend time and resources collecting animal fat and pitch rather than fishing lines and nets for the latter are more obviously involved with fishing to anyone, even to those with little experience.

And thus… The choices of such a leader as I describe who is put over the fisherfolk may have then working with befouled hulls due to the lack of pitch and other materials used in the coating of hulls. As such materials may be deemed as irrelevant to the so-called mission of the charity.

Any contracts designed for charitable organizations should be designed with much input from insightful leaders. I look forward to learning what may come from the seeds set forth by Vincenzo and the others who gathered at this Salon.

1 Grayson House Guards arrives, following Roxana.

Tonight the Empirical is heated in a bid to ward against the arrival of winter. A draft still creeps in here and there when the front door is opened or - as many an elder might claim - someone was clearly raised among the shav'arvani and left the door open for all the warm air to escape. Within the home of the Salon with the exceptionally long name a few waitstaff silently move about, delivering drinks or wordlessly reclaiming emptied glasses. Hadrian Mazetti lounges luxuriously within a plush, upholstered seat and a glass of cherry brandy rests in hand. He sips from time to time, but for the moment simply seems content to await the late arrivals. The early and on-time arrivals though earn a silken grin while one leg shifts up and atop the other at the knee, "Once it warms up again, we'll definitely be making use of the courtyard for some of these discussions. The fresh air helps the mind reach greater heights in its wondering. An apothecary told me that," he explains with a shallow dip of his chin. That same chin rises again in order to permit himself a sip from his glass.

Peri has joined the a cluster of couches around a low table.

Ektor, Basil, Sweet Lamb of Delight and Bouncy Hops arrive, following Marisol.

Princess Roxana Grayson is well known for turning up to events late, if she turns up at all. Yet here she is right on time, smiling to everyone whose eye she catches on the way to select somewhere to sit. She's dressed in an unusual coat-dress depicting a unicorn, but it works on her, the aspiring fashion plate. "Hello everyone, it's so good to see you all again. Or for the first time." Laughter follows.

Merek has put on his casual black attire, arm sheath adjusted about as he makes his way into the Emperical. He looks around a bit, and makes for the place he can relax in the warmth while he takes a moment to mix up something to drink in his flask.

Roxana has joined the a cluster of couches around a low table.

Peri makes a quiet entrance and slips around the milling crowd to stand at the bar. She brushes some flakes off know off her lilac coat and drapes it over the back of her chair at the bar. She talks in a low voice to a bartender and soon has a mulled cider cupped in both hands. While she waits for the dicussion to start, she works on a map.

Cambria, seated to Hadrian's right, has for her own drink that evening a mug of mulled wine. Glittering blue eyes peer through the rising steam as men and women begin to file into the Salon. At Hadrian's remark, she leans aside to say, "The apothecary also said that cold air is bracing, and good for sharpening the intellect." Her mouth curves into a lazy smile. Given that she looks about as comfortable as a lounging cat in the sun, there is little doubt as to just where she would prefer to be.

The main discussion seems not to have begun and thus Princess Marisol looks minorly relieved for her own late yet fashionable arrival. Ektor, her shadow in Valardin colors with salt and pepper hair looks a little less than pleased to be attending while his charge is producing a rather whimsically pleasant smile. Smoothing her brocade dress into place she is quickly removing her cloak and as if practiced in the motion, her guard steps forward to retrieve it while in a downward descent. Laying it over his arm while the Princess surveys the room he grunts a moment and leans forward to speak at her ear. Her head turns, tilting her head a moment before she offers a warm smile to Peri and companion, a white gloved hand lofted.

It is then that she dips her head to the Marquis and his companion before she moves to find herself a comfortable place to sit.

Rian, the overworked, lovelorn seamstress arrives, following Vincenzo.

Roxana is lounging on one of the couches in that little cluster, no drink in hand as of yet, and looking perfectly contented. "Hmm, have we met I wonder?" She asks the question while glancing at those gathered who she is unfamiliar with.

Peri s/history

"No, no, the advice of the cold being a good thing was in relations to remedies for use after a long night of drinking. That apothecary also told me it was good luck to stick your thumb somewhere uncomfortable on a duck, so..." Hadrian's eyes abruptly lance aside to regard Cambria, his chin up as he watches her with purse lips. A couple of seconds pass and Hadrian's eyes promptly snap away and he springs up to his feet with only the most minor of movements within his glass of wine. He lifts a cupped hand in greeting to those who visit the Empirical. First and foremost he acknowledges the presence of Roxana, "My dearest, most darlingest aunt that resides in the city who most definitely remembers me. It is so very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very good to see you!" He offers the Grayson princess that is Roxana a smile that dances smoothly across his features. Then onward his attention travels to the remainder of arrivals. He offers a polite dip of his chin to various faces, from Lady Peri to Sir Merek. Onward his attention travels to Marisol and his glass of brandy lifts in silent salute. Then to the whole of those gathered does he speak, "A few months past Archlector Avary of the Sentinel wrote a journal that referenced our very own Salon. In that entry she presented a question and advised that it may be worthy of discussion at the Salon. I read it, I considered it, and I couldn't have agreed more at the time. I still agree now". Hadrian pauses for a moment to consider the gathering before he continues, "The discussion for this evening is one that may seem quite simple on the surface, but as one considers it and the ramifications of decisions made, it can quickly become complex. The way that we perceive - and give to - charity. How they are measured when held up against one another. How we perceive that measurement. Is giving to one charity of greater importance or greater prestige than giving to another? Why?"

Quiet, a Valardin champion, A dutiful Valardin aide arrive, following Katarina.

Vincenzo steps in fashionably late after knocking his boots at the door. Pulling his cloak off and having it hung, he unwraps the soft purple scar around his neck while folding it. With a quick glance around, he spies his patron and walks to join her, giving a bow before sitting and claiming a glass of wine for himself as he listens to the host, Hadrian.

Marisol has joined the a collection of small tables and chairs gathered together.

As Hadrian begins to drive right into the topic, Marisol is quick to join the small tables that the Marquis and Marquessa have taken their place at. She smiles at Cambria and then redirections her gaze to the words being offered to the room at large. Settling into her chair she glances about for a server for certainly discussion requires something to wet the throat with. It also takes up the idle moments when one must listen and observe. A brow however arches and not quickly launching into her view on the topic she sits back a moment and lets her gaze linger on the room, sweeping from one person to the next with a quick brush of fingers up past her dark curls in an attempt to tame them back away from her face.

Once he has his drink, Merek relaxes at a place on a sofa which is about, so that he can take a sip while he listens to the conversation topic. He pulls his mantle about him while his gaze lids tiredly.

Quiet, a Valardin champion, A dutiful Valardin aide leave, following Katarina.

3 Armed Confessors, Orva, a discreet assistant arrive, following Faye.

Quiet, a Valardin champion, A dutiful Valardin aide, Faye arrive, following Katarina.

3 Armed Confessors, Orva, a discreet assistant leave, following Faye.

Quiet, a Valardin champion, A dutiful Valardin aide, Faye leave, following Katarina.

Cambria regards Hadrian as he stands, most especially as he addresses his aunt, Roxana. Shortly thereafter, the Marquessa herself says, "Indeed, your highness. It has simply been /too/ long since we had a proper conversation. I know life in the Crownlands is of a different pace than that which we are used to in the Lyceum, but one should always make time for family." Her teeth flash white behind her smile, and then she sips from her cup. Cambria then sits back within her chair, listening to Hadrian as he launches into the evening's topic of discussion. She ventures to say, "Nothing is equal. By virtue of this, one cannot expect one charity to carry the same weight as another." Noting Marisol, the Marquessa offers the Valardin princess a charming smile.

"My darling nephew, Hadrian Malvici, now Marquess Hadrian Mazetti ruling suitably at his wife's side. Of course I have not forgotten you! Not even when I tried!" This last bit surely was a jest, it comes with a smile that is warm and teasing both. "Charity. I suppose we should define it before we analyze it, and give examples. Is charity working to assist strangers in need? What if a friend is in need and you support him or her, is /that/ charity? When Charitable Organizations are created, how do they run themselves? How does one know where their contributions go?"

"I was taught that charity is a form of love, more than all else. I think it should exemplify compassion, it is more than just benefitting people in my thoughts," Merek admits, while he takes a drink of his spiked liquor which he has with him.

"I find that charity is gifting resources, be it time or other more tangible things, without the commonly understood application of law of agreements binding two or more together in a meaningful exchange. It is me sacrificing a portion of what I have in a form of..yes, that I can uplift you. There is nothing equal about that act, it comes from a place of inequality to begin with." says Vincenzo to the group. "Conversely, how does one measure how the receiver of a blessing and bounty should act?" asks Vincenzo to Hadrian. "This is the jewel of the Compact, and yet there is a great deal of the Faith's flock right here that are ignored and ostracized; kept in the clutches of poverty and homelessness, lost in the downward spiral of hopelessness. Surely there should be some type of oversight on organizations and donations. Fix with transparency, so we can measure how gifts are being used appropriately."

Roxana has left the a cluster of couches around a low table.

Hadrian casts a joyful grin back at Roxana's words and he offers a shallow bow of his head toward his aunt, "Suitably? Exceptionally, you mean". He winks playfully toward Roxana, but inevitably his attention must drift back to the subject at hand - which means answering Roxana's question, "Let us stick to the simplest of definitions for a charity. Less so for our sanity and more so for the time of all involved". Hadrian's hands come together as he presents a question to the gathering, "Let us use the example that the Archlector of the Sentinel was so kind as to present: one charity helps war orphans and the other helps to maintain infrastructure that acts in service to poorer regions. Yes of course giving to the charity that aids those poor children orphaned by war is a right and noble thing. Compassionate even!" Hadrian remarks with a nod of his head toward Merek, "There are many who would donate to that cause, because it feels wonderful to know you may have made a difference in a small childs like for only 29 silver per month. What then of the charity that gives to a local carpenter who makes bowls that can be used at a local soup kitchen? One is far more d'awwww inducing that the other, but the latter is no less important than the former."

Hadrian nods along after listening to Vincenzo's words. He seems to take on an expression of focus, listen to the words that the other says. He nods a little more and then lifts a hand to gesture at the Vincenzo, clearly signaling that he would return to that question, "I will answer that one soon enough, but I want to hear out everyone and see that the discussion sparks befoer I become the center of this discussion. I do try to maintain some measure of impartiality in these discussions as a Moderator of the Salon, but he," he nods toward Vincenzo, "makes a number of good points and I would really like to speak on some of those points."

Marisol's gaze slips from one to the next and then pauses upon Vincenzo. A thoughtful expression settles across her face before she dips her head in thought. She clears her throat and speaks up to join in on a point or two, perhaps diverging a bit. "No only how it is received," she dips her head to the man who set her on this choice of words, "But rather is it what they need specifically. What I might give to charity might not be in fact what the receiver needs. Is it then still considered charity. The giving a charity to us, the action is indeed selfless and not something to be frowned upon. To aid others is to be thoughtful of the world around you but there sometimes is a pressing need to discern what is the most prominent problem in the Compact and seek to aid those problems first. But that then is triaging all the problems or needs of our world. It is hard to say if one is truly more important than the other for different people will be affected by each. The view point of each individual will tell you something else likely with who you ask. This is not an easy topic to discuss...especially whe we speak not only of standing socially but even from the needs of one to another or perhaps a personal connection due to family or otherwise."

Hadrian's attention shifts to Marisol and he listens with his attention cast toward her. He nods along with portions of what she speaks and by the end he offers a response directly to the Valardin princess, "A very good point. Triaging the problems. In addition to that, I have had some in the past - people from the Lower Boroughs, no less - who have said that giving to charity and helping to sustain those in need is little more than creating a dependency. Which...", Hadrian's attention then shifts around to regard Vincenzo. He considers the man for a moment before he continues, "...loosely ties into your own point. Those individuals who are trapped in a downward spiral with the occasional ledge to pause on before the tumble begins anew. They are dependent upon that charity to aid in their survival. How then does one reverse that spiral and uplift them? If charity is not the answer, what would you propose is the answer to create uplift others in a sustainable way?"

"Our society has a foundation built on inequality, but reinforced with laws both written and unwritten tradition about symbiotic harmony and solemn respect for promises and oaths. For example, as a Crownsworn, I look specifically to the Crown to ensure that I am able to live my life in measured happiness. The King must ensure there are laws, that they are enforced. The King needs an army to act out his will to defend against harm. He needs officials and magistrates to determine how to interpret his will across thousands of issues he himself cannot oversee. In return for this benevolence, I swear my loyalty to him and pay taxes and other things as demanded upon me. I am dependent on him, and in return, he is dependent on me; I suppose you can be king of one person, but it'd be a very paltry kingdom." remarks Vincenzo, considering Marisol's and Hadrian's words as he takes a drink of his wine.

"The issue with the Lowers isn't about creating a dependency through charity; there already exists that across all levels of society. There seems to be a lack of education and support to ensure those who are uplifted with love aren't just thrown over the ledge to learn to fly; if birds can look after their little ones, why can't we."

"A lack of education as a topic would be excellent for another debate," Cambria says to Hadrian as she observes Vincenzo. "And because it would be so off topic, I will not address that here. Instead I shall say that if what began as charity instead becomes a dependency, then it can no longer be seen as a charity. We need only consider the age old saying 'teach a man to fish,' to understand how such things can turn hopelessly awry, and how we might rather address them."

"Ah, yes," Hadrian remarks with a nod toward Cambria, "'teach a man to fish' and he will become one of the best liars. Fishermen and their fishing tales," he remarks with a solemn nod of his head. He seems to be serious. Then Hadrian's attention returns again to Vincenzo and he levels a finger casually toward the man, "The next time there's a call for candidates in the commoner's council? I strongly suggest that you put your name into the group. I think you've a solid chance". It's spoken as a compliment and Hadrian offers another nod of his head before he continues to address Vincenzo, "This is merely my interpretation of what you've said? So do feel free to correct me if I'm taking the wrong message from it... but if birds can look after their chicks, why can't we? It sounds as though greater infrastructure would be vital in reversing the downward spiral. An effort toward long-term rewards that will inevitably suffer from growing pains, but it's an overall greater choice than the bandage that is regularly applied."

Hadrian's attention then turns to the group as a whole and another question is presented, "A very wise person once told me that the world needs balance. These days, I would even debate that it demands balance. Is too much charity a bad thing? Can there be exceptionally negative effects in our worship of Gild - and through Gild - the strengthening of civilization?"

Without drink yet, Marisol settles for tapping her gloved finger against her leg as she crosses them slowly and with careful arranging of her skirts after. The Princess tilts her head first to Hadrian and then considers a moment. "There is a way to measure out what is given, to support instead of handicap. The problem is that can also be a case by case basis. Perhaps the charity should be in making certain that the problem can be maintained a stable plateau rather than throwing resources at it relentlessly. But that takes on the form of those heading such organizations," she remarks before her gaze slips to Vincenzo and she quiets thoughtfully.

"Yes, most of the Compact depends on him. In including those new to bending the knee but not everyone needs the same sort of reliance upon the crown or those who are able to offer charity." She points out and then she makes a motion with her hand, "Which then leads us to the problem of figuring that out and in cases charity becomes a rather complicatea affair. Do you treat everyone equally even though one person may need more help and another less but are still both offered the same aid?" She smiles though, "I digress, I think I have strayed a little too far from the topic. I still think it is a matter of whether what is given is viewed as charity or rather needed. It is the receiver who determines such things rather than the giver." She bites her tongue quickly as Cambria speaks and she dips her chin, "Well said, exactly. To create self depedency is the ultimate goal I think. To right the ship so it once more sails and no longer takes on water."

Vincenzo enjoys this particular vintage he's having, he asks for another refill as he listens with interest the discussion at hand. There's a nod here, a nod there, a lot of nods given as everyone seems to have a point. To Hadrian's offer he says, "You're interpreting my thoughts right." To Marisol he agrees with her with a nod, "Careless and thoughtless throwing of resources at something isn't responsible, it isn't an act of love but of selfishness, even if the act is about helping someone else. You have a good point."

"I think that then reinforces my thoughts on charity listening to the group here, that it is at the core an act of responsible love to follow the Church's ideals with Gild. We must be responsible givers; not to hold back our desire to give, but to make sure our gift is needed and used in a manner that will create positive change with that organization or individual."

"A general theme that has followed some of the answers is oversight. What are your thoughts on who should provide such oversights?" Hadrian's attention dances around the Empirical for a moment, searching faces and considering presences. He does finally take a step back and settle again into his chair and sips from his cherry brandy. He sips a little longer than is probably natural, likely on account of so many words spoken and nary a drop to sooth is drying mouth and throat. He lifts a hand as he continues on the tail end of his own question, "Some of you may know and some may not, that I have a hand in the Arvum Refugee Relief Group. Our goal is to help those displaced by all manner of disasters - whether natural or otherwise. Those who volunteer their time to the Group are just that: volunteers. They, nor even I, receive pay. Our time is given freely. One may take note that we do not have a headquarters office or any such thing, many of our meetings being held in private booths in public places or at times," Hadrian nods casually aside toward Cambria as if she were a witness to his next words, "my very own private study. At the establishment of the charity, when the original thought came to me, demanded that we seek to minimize unnecessary expenses in order to ensure that everything that we could muster? Was provided to those in need. Whether it was to pay those with trade skills to take on apprentices from among those under our care, temporary housing, rent, foodstuffs, and more. The funds are not ours. They do not belong to us. We manage them and we essentially provide oversight to those funds and resources. Our goal is to provide short-term aid while seeking long-term solutions for each individual under our care. Would that require oversight or does it sound as though great care is being taken to ensure each donation received is put toward the proper goal?"

"A good question and certainly Gild's views are definitely at the core of this tonight, at least by way of the direction we have taken when discussing this," Marisol points out and then tilts her head slightly in thought as she considers Hadrian a moment before her dark eyes move to those gathered, "It is always best to seek the wisdom of those who are directly linked to those being cared for. Someone reliable and with a view from a standpoint that those giving can not be afforded. Having such a person on a committee would offer invaluable insight as to what is likely needed over what is offered and given. Time, is a valuable resource and a great way of giving to charity without it being misused over overused. Time is something we all have in finite supply on any given day or lifetime. That of all should be appreciated," she nods her head to the Marquis before glancing to Vincenzo. "The question is finding those willing to aid who can. Not everyone wishes to give their time and I have to admit that I find it likely the most precious resources personally to someone. It may be the most difficutl thing for them to give."

"That leaves the question: is every charitable organization run in the same, or similar manner, the the Arvum Refugee Relief Group?" Cambria proposes. "One should also ask whether it should be considered the fault of the charity if the funds they gather are then misappropriated by those they are given to. For example," she rolls her hand lazily upon her wrist within the air. "Silver donated to free thralls is deposited into the account of House in the Mourning Isles. Documents are latter produced saying thralls have been freed, but some intrepid investigator later discovers that it was all a scam on the part of the House. Do we ultimately blame the charity, or do we look to those who committed the fraud as the true wrongdoers?"

As Marisol speaks, Cambria listens before sharing her own thoughts. "It can be easier to give in the form of silver as opposed to taking time away from one or another matter. And this then is where I would say that it is on us to do our own research before blindly writing a writ to take to the bank. Being deceived and swindled is one matter, ignorantly giving silver to a clear and obvious scam is another."

"It seems to me that oversight could come from the bailiwick of the Faceless, a new group formed to investigate, audit, report on and submit to those who break the laws to the Courts to face justice rather than the Inquisition as it takes a different set of skills for a different set of problems. Finance and accounting, law, sleuthing, detachment, that sort of thing." Vincenzo says over his glass of wine. "I think lord Hadrian's example of how a charitable organization should be responsibly run could be offered as a good starting point for a draft of a code, a starting point to help address one side of the problem on deciding which organization or person we should provide charity to. And then perhaps draft a letter that outlines a few suggestions on how each of us can be better emulating Gild so that our gifts of love are given responsibly. Two things the Salon could pen."

Vincenzo is overheard praising Hadrian: In order to offer a solution, one ought to show a real world example instead of offering obtuse ideas. He leads by example for others to build a more better and beautiful world. Well done.

Peri speaks up, "I fear that worry of abuse of charity might lead to those without specific skill and knowledge attempting to dictate to those receiving the charity how to use such rather than trust that the ones who need it know best what they need." She continues, "Let us speak on fishing, since that pearl of wisdom was brought up. House Seliki is preparing to settle refugees and freed thralls in Pearlspire. We will have people teach them such things as fishing. If you were to do the same on your land, you might hire some of your fisherfolk to teach the refugees. The fisherfolk will likely know more about their needs than do you. If one were to forget that and out of some sense of oversight decide that the ones given the charity are abusing it by acquiring oil rather than spending it on nets which obviously have something to do with fishing we will have fishing boats foiled with barnacles and such because the fisherfolk were not able to treat their boats. How can you avoid such a failure mode?"

"Oh," Hadrian remarks back at Marisol with a soft smile, "so in something such as the Arvum Refugee Relief Group, one would suppose that having a former refugee who was once Abandoned, made a commoner by bending the knee to the Compact in a position of power and influence would be proper oversight?" Hadrian's head tilts ever so slightly as he offers a fledgling smile, "Then I must commend myself for having the foresight to ask Jyri Tersk, now Lord Jyri Whitehawk, to fulfill a position of influence among the Group. In fact he acts as a Consul for the Group and thus he speaks for it, because I considered it of vital importance to have someone who had lived the life of a refugee, to be a representative of it". He takes a moment to look aside and consider Cambria before he offers a simple shake of his head, "It is ever the perpetrators should be punished. Recall the story I told you of the man who skimmed from the coffers of Southport? Funds intended to support the people? Punishment should always reside on the shoulders - or neck - of the one who knowingly commits the crime".

Hadrian's attention then bounces back to regard Vincenzo. A soft smile spreads across his sharp features at his answer and he offers an appreciative dip of his chin in silent thanks toward the roundabout compliment. He affords himself another sip from his glass of wine and after a moment he offers a tilt of his glass of cherry brandy toward Vincenzo, "You flatter me, but I did what only seemed logical and right. I did what... someone..." he glances to the gathering, "...said earlier. I did what I saw needed to be done. The Arvum Refugee Relief Group was established quite literally days after the Siege of Arx was concluded. You can imagine what prompted my desire to help." Then Peri speaks up and Hadrian's attention turns to regard her. He listens and nods along with her own examples, though by the end his attention drifts to the gathering as a whole. Vigilant in watching for the one who will rise to the topic.

Peri is overheard praising Hadrian.

"Yes, That is exactly what I intended with my words than perhaps are very like minded, my lord. A good move and rather forward thinking of you," Marisol admits and then smiles somewhat amused at him. "Lord Jyri is in the right place where his knowledge will be of great use to you and yours. Were not all the rest of our charities such thinkers and perhaps they are. Maybe there others like yourself, my lord." She dips her head and glances to Cambria and looks thoughtfully. "To give blindly is not an admirable thing but neither is the tricking of said willing hearts. The blame lies on both one for not being thoughtful enough to be certain of where they place their charity and the other for those who would use that good will to their betterment."

Eyes move from the Marquessa then to Vincenzo ultimately gets a nod of approval befores he looks to Peri, "I understand where you are coming from, Lady Peri. Placing people in charge to train or aid others so that they might better care for themselves should continue to be watched over. There will always be risk in such ventures and placement of people but that means those who ultimately have control or managment over all should continue to keep watch and weed out those that will do more harm than good in the long run."

Merek is overheard praising Hadrian.

Vincenzo raises his glass in a little lift to Hadrian's way before he takes a drink. "If leading was easy, sheep would shepherd themselves." he says over the rim of his glass with a frown before he smiles. "Sheep are quite stupid even if they have an innate desire to live, they'll still do things that are self-destructive. The shepherd is the one who has the responsibility to care for the sheep; the flock will prosper or die on her guidance, and ultimately, I still feel that oversight and infrastructure is good to reinforce the right choices. I still believe the Salon could pen a code on running a charitable organization along with new auditing infrastructure, use his lordship Hadrian's example, and an article on responsible giving using each of your good examples. It attacks two points on the problem and will help determine which charity is best for the giver to give. Draft it so it gets people to think themselves, let those ideas flourish beyond this particular discussion group."

"We must account for human error, of course," Cambria says to Peri. "Mistakes will be made. Of course, being a good person does not mean you will know best. Sometimes, people with good hearts do things they think are right and proper but are instead disastrous. Not every liege is actually a capable ruler. Therefore, your question is one that cannot be answered definitively because there are so many variables to consider. No two people, no two situations, are alike. Nor can you expect your best practices, which work in Pearlspire, will in turn work out so well in another domain." Cambria then gestures to Vincenzo and says, "At best, I would call these guide lines that others should follow, but tailor as they need or must."

Hadrian is overheard praising Merek: The presentation of something to the discussion of charity. Something that on the surface can be easily overlooked but is so often embraced. Compassion. Many acts performed in the world are a result of emotion.

Hadrian is overheard praising Vincenzo: A future member of the commoner's council. Of course some of his views would likely see him make a great many enemies. That is what conviction is for, however. To see one through such difficult trials. He also seems a fan of creating work for me. Which just goes to show that he truly does care about providing work to others.

Hadrian is overheard praising Marisol: She took a measure of the discussion and then committed herself fully to it. Participation trophies haven't been created yet, but she will definitely be earning one after this discussion hosted by the Salon.

Hadrian is overheard praising Cambria: Teach a man to fish and he'll become the very best liar that has ever caught a three hundred pound catfish. Just ask his cousin, Jed.

Hadrian is overheard praising Peri: Really hung up on fish, pearls, oils, and boats. One certainly can't be surprised by that though, given the trades of the people from Pearlspire. She makes a fair point, though I may not agree with the longevity.

Peri raises her mug to Vincenzo, "I think it a fine idea, do not let my question mislead you on that. I wish for care to be taken." She replies to Cambria, "The eample of Pearlspire was just that, a specific example. I am an expert in fishing, as it happens. I would be the one to make the mistake with, eh.." She waves her hands, "coopering for wine making or some such thing I know aught of."

"I will definitely take your suggestion to heart. I will definitely consider that idea, though I can only imagine with the many fiercely independent know-it-alls of this city that the suggestions would simply fall on deaf ears, Vincenzo" Hadrian answers the topic of drafts with a resolute nod of his head and a wry grin. He pauses for a moment after speaking the name and his jaw works about for a moment. A clearing of his throat later and Hadrian's attention drifts around to the gathered group and he offers a smile toward those present. The smile dissipates with a sip of his brandy and upon the glass lowering, he addresses the gathering again, "I do believe that my participation in the discussion has come to a close, though. I feel as though we've talked the topic to the point of exhaustion. For now, anyway. Join us next time for a rousing discussion of crime and the importance of it!" Or, he pauses for a moment before he adds, "Or lack of importance, of course."

"I look forward to talking about the importance of crime," Peri admits. She gathers her otes and coat and prepares to leave.

Vincenzo finishes off his wine and sets the glass down before standing up. "Thank you for hosting, and thank you each for excellent viewpoints and arguments, I'm looking forward to another one." Wrapping his scarf around the neck, he throws his cloak over a shoulder and braves the cold air outside.

Rian, the overworked, lovelorn seamstress leaves, following Vincenzo.

Marisol has left the a collection of small tables and chairs gathered together.

Ektor, Basil, Sweet Lamb of Delight and Bouncy Hops leave, following Marisol.

Peri has left the a cluster of couches around a low table.

"You were an excellent host and moderator," Cambria says to Hadrian as she stands to her feet, smiling at the former Duke. "As always."

"Yes," Hadrian comments back at Cambria while he pushes up to his own feet. He gathers up his long coat and shrugs into it with the aid of Master Luigi. Then he sets off toward the Empirical's front door, his glass of cherry brandy still in hand. One mustn't pour out good brandy. As the door opens with the departure of another and the blinding snow beyond becomes visible, Hadrian scowls at the outdoor before he nods toward Cambria, "I have an office here, you know? I'll just sleep on my desk and you can sleep on the chaise. Or, you know, we can share like fully functional adults."

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