From the cold winter outside, a tall, pale and far too gaunt figure enters dressed in a rather foreign martial uniform enters with Pasquale and Orland. Titus gives a dip of his head to those here, glancing about the room and the occupants for today's Salon discussion with blood red eyes before he chooses a seat. The Warmonger is silent to see where the discussion might be taken.

Orland is moving a lot slower than usual, a crutch under his right arm, his left in a sling, his one leg in a cast... There's bound to be a physician that runs in sooner or later that gives him a verbal tongue lashing but this salon had been understandably close to home. So he's out with Titus and Pasquale, lingering behind the two. He follows behind the Warmonger, without saying too much to anyone else, yet.

Noah strides into the salon as if he's the owner and operator for it. He's also not apologetic because of this. The Grayson noble studies the area and then moves towards the low couches to drop himself upon one. It might be noted that he brought HIS OWN alcohol. He heard about it being watered down here. He does not light up anything yet.

Despite the snowfall and chill, Cesare certainly looks merry enough, all red-nosed and rosy-cheeked from the walk over, his coat and hair dusted with snowflakes. He brushes himself off perfunctorily and steps over almost immediately to the bar, retrieving a hot toddy for himself and then, when he spots Denica, giving her a wave and making a motion between her and the bar to ascertain if she needs a drink or if she's been properly fortified. It doesn't particularly matter to him if it's strong or not, it's warm and satisfying, and that's what he's after.

Yuri sifted inward through the open doors of the salon, having been familiar with such of the layout on the last open forum there had been some days past. He chose a similar seat on the outskirts of the circular ring of the forum itself, settling into a corner of the bench as he leisurely leaned backward to outstretched his legs and folding his arms over his chest comfortably.

Katarina was lingering in her office, on the other side of the Salon's atrium. When she emerges, she's wearing a leather floor-length dress -- it seems as though she picked the most covering thing in her entire wardrobe. She isn't wearing one of the Eurusi veils that she's become known for wearing in the last two years. Maybe she should have, because her face and her hands are the only things left visible, and they appear to be covered in... insect bites...? Welts of some kind, in any case. It's not appealing. Golden eyes zero in on Noah instantly. "Prince Noah," she says, striding over on short legs. She curtsies in a customary but not incredibly deep way. She seems very tired. "I was at Bastion when..." The sentence dies on the vine. "House Grayson has my..." Again. "...I... I am glad you are well."

3 Armed Confessors, 3 House Velenosa Guards arrive, following Alistair.

Pasquale moves with Orland and Titus towards some of the seats and settles there besides them in quiet. His eyes move around the room, taking in everyone who is there and he offers an occasional nod of recognition for those who have also come out today. When he speaks however it is soft, angled for those closest to him only.



Denica stands in the centre of the circle of chairs, hands clasped together and a well-rehearsed smile on her face. The young woman waits for people to settle down before she begins to speak in a confident and clear tone. Little princess, loud voice.

"Welcome to The Salon! Tonight's discussion is on neo-nobles. My name is Denica Thrax and I'm excited to be your host. Unfortunately, Duke Hadrian Mazetti will not be joining us. But, I'd like to thank him for the efforts he's taken to organize this event series. Before I open up the floor and we get to it, I am going to walk you through a couple of ground rules."

"Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is a safe space to speak freely, but at any point if someone makes personal attacks against another? You will be tossed out ...and I might even do it myself," the petite princess flashes a wicked grin. "There will be zero tolerance for rudeness. I couldn't care less who you are." Denica continues to speak. "The intent of these events is to let people discuss interesting and sometime controversial topics, all perspectives in one room, together. Respect is important, unruly and inappropriate disruptions of any kind will be met accordingly." A breath, "that said, I encourage you to speak freely, to share your words, thoughts and ideas. That's the beauty about these events," Denica pauses for dramatic effect. "But remember, while this is a safe environment..., when you leave this room, you take your words with you. We cannot be held responsible for how others outside this establishment will react. Otherwise, I hope you enjoy tonight's conversation. If there are any issues, you can take them up with me." Denica stands alone, but there are no doubt a series of guards around the room, with a close eye on the princess. "So, let's begin! What are your thoughts on neo-nobles?". Denica refrains from giving her own opinion, rather she lets anyone step in to start while wearing her consistent smile.

One doesn't find the High Inquisitor out in public too much. Both because he is not a public person, and generally he likely scares those who are. Best keep the dour man to his darkened halls and shadowed cells, lest the mood in the city is even further ruined. But even he can't pass on an opportunity for... entertainment? People watching? Debate? Discussion. He is likely a stark example of the concept of Neo-Nobility. Neo ... Royalty? Is that a thing. Well it is for him. He arrives in silence, and sits in silence, watching as the little discussion begins.

Noah checks composure and etiquette at normal. Noah is successful.

Pasquale lifts his head. "I feel it is important that the truly exceptional can be raised into the nobility, if they prove themselves sufficient, but I must admit that there have been quite a few elevantions of late. Perhaps it is because we live in such extraordinary times and opportunities that used to come once a generation, if that, are popping up so often."

Orland looks over toward Pasquale, offering, "I don't like the term 'neo' noble. I think, once someone earns the truly exceptional rise to nobility, they should be simply one with nobility. Calling them .. -us- .. otherwise, sort of makes us second class nobility, and that there in, is changing the Compact by acknowledging there's second class nobles."

Noah turns his eyes towards Katarina. He watches her with a measure of interest as she greets and lowers. Then there are the words. Those words cause his eyes to narrow for just a moment. "Yes, well. I'm sure that Grayson is glad you are well too, Princess." He looks at her a moment longer before he finds a glass to pour his wine into. He's not drinking out of the bottle yet. He then looks to hear how the others feel about this for now. everything is for now.

Cesare takes a seat and eyes the very different set of attendees in the room tonight than had been present for the first iteration of this discussion. He gives Pasquale an appreciative nod when he /doesn't/ have to be the one to speak up first. "What Lord Pasquale brings up is a valid point. And it raises the question, if there is some specific quibble with those who have been raised recently? Or is it simply the frequency, as we find ourselves in precipitous times. But if there is some quarrel with a new member of the nobility, why not say so, rather than disdaining those who have been elevated as a whole? What is lacking in this new group of nobles that the peerage finds them so odious?"

"Very true; there /have/ been quite a few elevations. Some of which, our less visible peers have chimed in on at the most recent Assembly. It always is a wonder why the matters are not brought up to their respective heads of House to bring to fealty seats, though that is neither here nor there." Yuri remarked, idly picking at a strap upon his leather gauntlet before glancing upward, "They are, and then they are not, are they? Pardon me, -you- are, in this case?" His brow rose to question, "I am sure there are some that use the term to mark the distinction in a matter of fact-speaking. To denote when someone was elevated. And then I am sure you will have detractors that will never allow you to forget just how 'new' you are."

Phillip, 2 House Riven Soldiers arrive, following Nigel.

Alistair remains silent, his eyes shifting to each speaking in turn. When they speak of recent complaints he ponders briefly back to his marriage, and how it supposedly caused two deaths of the peerage via apoplexy. His features are otherwise... impassive.

Katarina gives Noah the kind of smile that one does when lips are pressed together and dimples pulled back -- the 'hey, good talk, ace' smile. She seems keenly aware of how words are a totally inappropriate venue for conveying the horror of what happened. She also seems keenly aware of how she looks like hell, with so many bites on her face. She turns toward the discussion and moves to take a seat. "To those most concerned about 'neo-nobles' -- and I am myself a neo-noble, I must clarify, for any who mistake me for a birth child of House Valardin," says the woman with a very thick Dune Kingdoms accent, "it comes down to dilution. Imagine the power of the peerage as a barrel of rainwater. In their minds, the more ennoblements there are, the more claims there are to the water in that barrel... and the less water their family can claim for themselves."

Making his way into the Salon comes Lord Nigel Riven. The young Riven lord pauses just inside the door and casts an eye around at those already assembled before sidling along the outer edges to seek out a chair to claim in the least interrupting fashion he can manage. Those who glance his way will receive an apologetic nod of his head, a wordless 'Sorry I'm late'.

Orland answers Cesare, "What is lacking is that we do not have the bloodlines, that have mated with dragons and elves. So I was told, by Princess Sorrel, when inquiring on why merit wasn't good enough reason to be noble." He nods to Yuri once, "I am. I was adopted into House Amadeo. I will adopt children as well, when the time comes. Merit in my eyes is more valuable than bloodline. Some of the bloodline, don't value what opportunities they are given and waste it away."

Titus says in a whispered voice from decayed lungs, "Lord Pasquale and others I don't recognise make a valid point. This current grumbling of recognising and rewarding exceptional peoples hasn't gone through the right channels and disrespects their overlords. This shouldn't be the way of the Compact to disregard and steal the opportunity of a highlord to give their weight behind an issue. I've yet to hear one great house reject another domain's rewarding. Going against your overlord seems dishonoourable."

"The simple matter is that neo-nobles are not nobles. They are like wolves wishing to be sheep by wearing the skins but they are not sheep as much as they wish they are. The same is said for neo-nobles." So it begins. Noah's voice is deep and rich as he speaks from his position. "They were not raised with the understanding and expectation of duty and sacrifice. They are just given titles much like one wanted to make their dogs knights. It is just a pat on the head to make one think they are more than they are. The fact of the matter is their blood is not the lineage of nobles and the reasons that nobility is more exclusive for who and what they are. Then you have them coming in and was it not neo-nobles returned to the fold that attack the Whisper house? Frankly, your blood line is not the noble bloodline. Instead of fixing what has been broken, you dilute the matter and make it worse." Noah takes a drink from his wine, "But as long as their feelings are not injured and they are able to puff up with reward, /obviously/ they can speak with more authority than those living it for generations." Another drink.

Judge, Kessi, a big-eared, fuzzy fennec fox, 7 House Deepwood Guards arrive, following Samantha.

Yuri cast a glance offward to where Noah was sitting, his face slowly contorting into an amused smile as if to say, 'oh, this will be interesting'. Whatever response he was going to make was silenced and he leaned backward to glance between faces of opposing viewpoints.

Arriving a little late, Samantha Deepwood makes as unobtrusive an entrance as possible, leaving her various guards to meld into the background scenery while she proceeds into the Salon on her own. She finds herself a seat, quietly, so as not to disturb the discussion if it has already started. She pushes back the hood of her cloak, and glances around in search of familiar faces. For now, she keeps her thoughts to herself.

"The last discussion we had on this very topic, it was argued that bloodline was less a question than merit, ironically," Cesare says with a laugh. "And on the question of bloodlines, I've been told quite recently that there are many, many children of mixed blood in the Compact. The Gods do not touch only the nobility, do they? And if it /is/ blood - Marquessa Cassiopeia Proscipi is of a bloodline that dates back to the very founding of the Saffron Chain. She was a Princess of Tremorus before it joined the Compact." He turns to listen to Noah. "Prince Noah - I'm an orphan from Setarco. Yet I was raised from the time I was taken in by Disciples of the Faith with just those ideals. Duty and sacrifice. Care for others before myself. And the same ideals are taught to the courtiers who pass through Whisper House, and none of whom who carry the name Whisper may hold title." He spreads his hands. "Blood? Ideals? Both? Neither?

Orland flashes a cool look toward Noah, "I was not born of some beastial sick twisted mating ritual with elves, but I fought in the War of Two Queens, I stood in Tremorus as it burned around us and was leveled, I was also just in Bastion. Nobility has nothing to do with /bloodlines/ and instead with courage and noble deeds."

Denica easily steps from the centre of the room to begin weaving through the different speakers. The young woman holds clasped hands in front of her, resting against the harsh, rigid structure of her gown. A stoic expression juxtaposes lively eyes, her curiosity is evident but Denica is here to listen and to facilitate. With the conversation flowing naturally, she seems content to let it unfold but she's paying close attention and seems ready to jump at any moment.

"Has every house such a legacy?" Pasquale asks Orland. "I know the rumours say that some have." he looks to Noah. "The raising house puts their reputation behind that individuals worth as a noble. It would be a foolish house indeed that didn't ensure the 'neo-noble' was educated properly first. If the new noble then goes around being a fool. Who's fault is it really?"

Titus looks to Noah but as Orland speaks up, he gives a nod and clap to show he supports what Orland says.

Yuri glanced to Pasquale, nodding, "On the last summit on this topic, I broached the very same conclusion. Whatever the title...it be up to the one who elevates the individual to a place of prominence that must take the vested interest in their commitment to the tenants of the ruling House. Be they from the Oathlands, the South, Northlands; across the Compact. Fealties hold true to an assortment of varying ideals. What should not be lost is that it is a responsibility to ensure that, 'neo'-noble or not, what is expected of them is learned properly. It can come in all facets; from private instruction, to the chambers of Whisper House. But the one to ennoble should bear responsibility for their choice."

Katarina folds her hands in her lap. She doesn't jump into the feeding frenzy that she anticipates over Noah's rhetoric -- but her eyes track over toward Denica, in a silent gesture of support. Denica leads the meeting, but Katarina leads the Salon. Sometimes, a gaze is all that's needed to say 'whatever you decide, I have your back.'

Orland winces as he shifts in the chair, muttering something quietly to those beside him.

Nigel has joined the scattered chairs in various elegant styles.

Noah doesn't have a reaction, he might appear bored. He looks over towards Pasquale for a moment. "Do you really think that? That the elevation has been researched?" He shakes his head. "I can think of one elevation that came out of lies and lack of concern. Thinking with things less than one's brain and understanding." There is a dark look as Bastion is mentioned. "Have you not thought that maybe the rise in all of this is because of the rise of neo-noblity? But no, you could never be to blame for this. You, as in neo-nobles, are obviously very researched in the start of the Great Houses." He's not raising his voice. He's pretty cool and detached except for Bastion mentioned. TOO SOON. His eyes slide towards the Whisper for a long moment. "I have a high respect for the Whispers. Most of them. Probably all of them now. They are not claiming neo-nobility though."

Luckily, Samantha had not yet arrived before Noah made his comments heard, so she seems completely oblivious to the looks the Prince is receiving. She remains quiet, hands folded neatly in her lap, an air of confidence about her despite her own 'neo-noble' status. She glances from person to person as they speak, listening to each, her features composed into a neutral expression she has learned well.

Alistair simply rumbles in his typical dour tone. "Nobility. Neo or otherwise. Is not to blame for the occurences at Bastion." He says this as he levels a stare at Noah.

Denica travels take her past the watered down drinks and she passes on the offerings, rather she is watching the ground. The young woman doesn't seem intent on stifling the conversation, but she does say. "I would caution people to try to keep their comments general. Some might say it's just semantics, but language is powerful."

Nigel listens as the discussion goes around the room, considering the points on both sides. He gestures toward Lord Orland and dips his head to the man before he says, "Personally I think that there is a great deal to be said for the merits of a man or woman attributing to the nobility granted them." His eyes shift to Noah then and he asks, "Forgive me, Prince Noah. You said earlier that you do not view neo-nobility as nobles and that you doubt the due diligence of those houses that elevated them in certain cases. Does this hold true for Baron Silas Whitehawk? Wasn't it Prince Ainsley Grayson that ennobled him several years back, the reasons being exemplary service and loyalty to House Grayson? In your eyes then, by your words, is he actually not a noble?"

"If you can prove they were wrong to elevate that particular noble." Pasquale asks Noah. "Why haven't you taken your proof to the people who elevated them in the first place. They do have the power to remove them from the ranks of nobility afterall. If they choose not to then, yes, in general my belief is that they simply have more information than you do. Or at least they believe they do." He inclines his head a little when Noah speaks of Bastion being tied to neonobles. "I think you are putting the chicken before the egg with the Bastion comment. If not for events like Bastion, which allow us to see that an individual is outstanding, why would there be anyone have been raised to the nobility?"

"Indeed, Whispers are not nobility. Many of them are baseborn, commoners, are orphans. And yet we espouse precisely the values that you attributed to the ideals of nobility," Cesare says, and then settles back, tapping at the rim of his glass and watching the discussion become livelier. Yes, livelier.

Katarina's eyebrows raise. Noah's provocation -- the idea that there might be a connection between increased ennoblement and the thousands dead on the streets of Bastion -- makes her eyes widen. She actually can't hide her surprise at that one. She swallows, and for a few moments afterward, the Valardin Princess has a thousand-yard stare while she looks at the floor. Mentally, she's somewhere else.

Titus says in his whispered voice to Noah, "I challenge the prince to name the one publicly who rose based on lies, or to retract his statement because claims without backing are like termites in the walls."

"As for Bastion, it is the duty of house Grayson to provide protection to that city and the people, but we as a Compact are bound together to help and serve and should one be attacked, we all circle and defend. It isn't a slight on Graysons for the fall of Bastion, nor is it due to new nobility. It is because as domains grow and old enemies become desirous of the Compact. The Vaevici who are very new to the Compact are ready immediately and commit to help build better walls at Bastion and to help our brothers and sisters in faith to seek out destroy those who dared to harm our allies. Many of my friends and allies from the Saffron helped defend Bastion, many who you'd call newly ennobled or worse, prodgial. Our enemies desire to disrupt our solidarity and bend our honour. If you begin believing their lies then may Mangata blow a newness to your spirit and Gloria help you strengthen your resolve against them."

Noah smiles. There is a charming bloke. His mouth is closed except to show his teeth. "I'm sorry.." He offers to Nigel and then indicates Denica. "I'm not allowed to speak on specifics. It would be rude to bring up specifics, she stated so. Thus, /I/ will not do that." He makes that 'but you did' look without saying it. His look pointedly says it. He doesn't look at Alistair. He can feel that look and even Noah hasn't drunk enough to deal with it. He does not his head in understanding to the words from the man. He looks at Titus. "No. The person knows who they are and they are not in the room. They know what I know and we will sort that on our own. I have no need to name names or I would have done it. Nor do I have the urge to do it for your petty entertainment. It is not your challenge to issue as it is not your name involved. Nor will I give it as that would be decidedly /un-noble/ to do." He takes a drink and it's hard to read his features about stirring the pot.

"True nobility can only be experienced when someone suffers being alone, starving, without owning a single silver or possession, and knowing, truly knowing in that moment, that you'd still do the right thing to help someone else before yourself," Orland decides to speak, "I am no knight of the Faith, but I've seen them and their works, they are noble of heart, spirit, and mind. In that way, aren't we all neo-noble when we drape ourselves with fancy riches and stuff our stomachs full of rich meats, while those beneath us eat a heel of bread that's a week old to get by?" He exhales a breath, "Merit, actions, duty... these have raised people to levels of nobility, that some nobles /born/ generations after, have forgotten that their entitlement had come from someone's act of valor or sacrifice - not their own."

There is a chuckle from Nigel as Noah seemingly sidesteps the validity of his statement with that gesture toward Denica. "That's convenient," he says before turning his eyes to Denica and offering her a bow of his head. "Forgive me if I have breeched a rule with my specificity. I was a tad late, but given the weight of the Prince's words, I felt it prudent to bring up the fact that his own house has elevated a commoner which... his spoken feelings on the matter make curious."

"Ignoble," Cesare says gently to Noah. "The word you're looking for is ignoble, your highness, though I suppose your assemblage serves just as well."

A messenger arrives, delivering a message to Piccola before departing.

A messenger arrives, delivering a message to Alistair before departing.

Yuri was content to watch the weaving of the two sides on the issue continue to share words...or barbs. Until his head picked up with a sudden start as he spied the General walking through to the forum. A hand rose to give an informal greeting to Piccola, before settling half of his attention back to the speakers.

Katarina takes this opportunity to rise from her seat and seek out one of the watered-down drinks. As she passes by Denica, she reaches out to pat the Thraxian Princess on the arm lightly, as though to say 'you're doing great,' though considering how Katarina's hand has all those bug-bite welts on it, being touched by her is not the most immediately appealing thing on the surface of Aion. She stands at the drinks for a moment, considering which to take, even though all the ones she's considering are the same thing.

A messenger arrives, delivering a message to Piccola before departing.

Titus nods to Noah's reasoning and accepts it. "Your reasons are your own, prince. The offer to help Bastion and Grayson by the Vaevici still stands and hope the Graysons take it. Lower houses should immediately help higher ones with their service and blood. In return, higher houses should recognise and reward valour and glory to those that in their actions show themselves capable of being raised. It's easy to miss why a house raises another as we might not be there in their realm, that doesn't make it any less than extraordinary. As my friend lord Orland mentions, we who are among the newest have the most to prove to our Compact allies that our overlords made the right choice in bringing us here. If we sit back on our success, it doesn't make it easy for other houses to remember and recognise. We all must keep moving forward, changing and winning the right wars in life to make the world better."

Denica breathes in slowly through her nose, it's not a deep breath, Mourning Isles fashion doesn't allow it. Denica doesn't address anyone specific but she does clarify her own statements. "I will re-iterate what I said at the start, for those that have just joined us. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but we don't attack each other. This is a safe space to talk freely. Specifics may illustrate point, but I caution you to consider how you do this, and make sure that we are showing respect to -each other- while we are in this room, even if we disagree," she gestures vaguely to the room. "The Salon is a place for everyone, and no one should feel afraid to speak their mind." Denica smiles warmly as Katerina passes and bites aside, she reaches out to touch her back, as though to confirm her appreciation that she's here.


Here comes the General.

She's late. She's always late to these things. From the front to the back, where Yuri is, Piccola makes her way in with soft feet. Somehow, she manages to seat herself down with letting her weapons rattle too much. But they //do// rattle, as weapons often do, especially when one is carrying half-a-dozen of them.

Her cowl keeps her face nice and shadowed.



Piccola has joined the tiered benches ringing The Forum.

Samantha continues to listen quietly, but she seems to take the most interest in Nigel's words. After a time, she comments, "The Crown does have within its power to raise one from commoner to noble. I am testament to this. Are you saying, then, that I am not noble? I daresay you may wish to take that up with His Majesty," she says, giving an easy smile toward Noah. "I was raised to follow noble ideals by Duke Gabriel Bisland, whom I view as my foster father. I have ruled my lands with a fair and just hand, and allowed them to flourish, just as any trueborn noble of the blood. I do not think that it is appropriate to disparage those who have come into their titles based on deed and merit, rather than accident of birth. Regardless of the origin of one's nobility, should we not all treat one another with due respect as duly-recognized Peers of the Realm, your Highness?"

Pasquale says "Don't get distracted by considering that being noble and acting noble are the same thing. The second does not require the first, as you have all argued. Nobility, and the obligations of it, are rather more than good manners."

Nigel looks toward Samantha, offering her all due respect as she speaks to him. He smiles then and offers a shake of his head. "No, no. I would not say that at all," he says, gesturing to Noah. "He did. That neo-nobles are not noble."

Alistair provides no additional comment as the discussion continues on, Bastion being only a passing comment. A messenger in Inquisition garb comes rushing in to deliver the message and the High Inquisitor responds with short and quited words before he goes back to noble watching.

Noah nods his head to Cesare. He doesn't seem put out by the correction. "Thank you. Ignoble." He'll probably forget that term later. He takes a drink as he looks from one to the other. A pause. "I wasn't calling /you/ an ignoble. Merely repeating the word." He's a jerk. He had to clarify that time he wasn't. He looks towards Titus. "It is probably best to move off the topic of Bastion for now. Unless you need to use it for an example. My people being slaughtered is still rather fresh." He looks over at the General when she enters and then takes another drink of wine.

"Those who mentioned the merits of noble starving and doing what is right, is not Noblity with a capital N. It is noble if you wish to use the word as such. That is more the acts of the concepts of Gods. That is free for all to do. It is a basis of your person, but it does not make you a Noble just because you do good. Which also begs to question, do you do good things because you are a good person or because you hope to gain nobility? Do you think so little of the class that you were born into that you seek to leave it? Nobility is a /vow/. It is an /oath/. It is sacrifice of self in different ways. A lack of freedom perhaps as well." He takes a drink of his wine. "You can rule. It does not make your bloodlines noble." He shrugs a bit and waits.

Katarina selects a glass. She has a sip, considers her words. She turns, faces the group. "I was raised from birth in the royal palace of the Dune Kingdom of Suj'abbat," she says. "I am the blood heir of its throne, and every aspect of my life until I came to Arvum was to prepare me for that birthright. You were raised to be a nobleman, Prince Noah. I respect this. I was raised to be a Queen." Katarina then walks to the far benches, to sit with the Tesseres and drink the rest of her watered-down wine, slowly.

Katarina has joined the tiered benches ringing The Forum.

"Whispers, knights, and godsworn all take vows as well," Cesare replies cheerfully. "Nobility seems so intangible, then, if it's not a matter of noble deeds or personal ideals, or service to the Compact; so we're returning back to the idea that bloodlines are noble. What makes a bloodline noble, then? Mixing with other races? The age of it? A certain number of people from a particular bloodline having done great deeds?"

Cesare katarina=:discreetly flashes a bottle of liquor that is almost certainly not watered down from the large pocket of his coat as Katarina passes by, in case she finds herself in need of such.

Dolente, a mourning dove, Dolce, a collared dove leave, following Cesare.

Pasquale suggests to Cesare. "A web of connections with other nobles?"

Dolente, a mourning dove, Dolce, a collared dove arrive, following Cesare.

Katarina equally discreetly waves her hand toward Cesare gently, but with a tiny look of muted gratitude.

Cesare drops Fernerra - a digestif from Saikland Greens.

Samantha inclines her head to Nigel. "I understand. I meant my words for the Prince, of course, my lord." She offers him a smile, before she speaks up again. "What purpose does it serve to disparage those who are not of noble birth? How does this improve the Compact, or the state of things right now? It seems to me that such sentiment only breeds ill-feeling and contempt for one another, when there are far more important things we should be worrying about, such as what happened in Bastion." She pauses, listening to Cesare's comment and nods in agreement. "Yes, what is it about noble blood that is better than common blood?" she asks curiously.

Titus brings a long set of pale fingers to his face, rubbing the temples for a moment as he closes his eyes.

Nigel offers a returned smile and bows his head respectfully toward Samantha before lifting his palm to lay his chin into it, turning his eyes back out toward those in open discussion.

Denica continues her methodic pacing, one foot after the other, heels clicking against the floor. Her eyes trails each person sitting there, fingers twitching as those yearning to hold something. Rather she amuses them by digging into a subtle but no doubt strategic pocket in her gown. The skirt is many times more than the slight woman and could hide a varied arsenal. Rather, she pulls out a small flash of her own, she uncorks it and takes a sip. Then just like that, fingers lace and rest in front of her, her expression remains stoic while eyes dance with interest.

"Perhaps if you were better studied, you would know those answer. Those are not mine to give or to entrust you with. Perhaps you should ask around to someone who it is their place to answer that about. There are answers. Just because you don't know them and I'm unwilling to share them in a public forum does not mean it doesn't exist." Noah takes a moment to refill his glass with her own drink brought by him. "We can go around and around about this, but my views are not suddenly going to change. Society, if we like it or not, is a class system. If you remove the classes you offer only anarchy. Perhaps now that might be the goal by other powers that move. It is not the goal of mine. Tell me, why nobility? Why not stay a commoner but be rewarded by knighthood. Or by other things, why must you become neo-nobles?" He pauses and glances at Denica and offers, "You in a general state." He turns to look at the others. "Why do you feel you are /entitled/ to become something you were not born as? Why must we all accept it merely because you demand it and think you are entitled to it?"

Titus says slowly from rubbing his temples, "I can't force anyone to think one way or another, but I can choose how I'll act and respond and conduct myself as a new prodigal house in the Compact. I choose to have my honour unbroken, and that I will treat my allies as I would like to be treated and accord them the respect they are owed. May Death look and help me carry myself with dignity. May my manners reflect alertness, competence, confidence and control knowing that with every end there's another beginning and should one option close, another opportunity can be found. May the Thirteenth give me courage so I can remain calm while I recognise fear in others and myself so I can have the strength to stand up for what is right rather than what's popular."

Titus continues, "New houses need to work hard to establish a strong foundation, one that is helped built in the community of their overlords and the Compact as a whole. And the Compact needs to look at these new houses as neighbours, to know that they'll be there to help patrol the walls and defend. We're in this together."


"If there is to be anarchy, your Highness, it is because you are inviting it."

The General calls out her response from where she sits. "Perhaps you have forgotten what happened not long ago, when the City was cut off and the commoners were starving and dying." Beat. "It is easy to talk about why people should not join you at your table when your larder is full." Shrug. "But last I heard, where there is a hunger, it matters not if one is commoner or noble. When it comes to war, both bleed and cry for their mothers just the same."

"And the Queen cares not what we call ourselves when she calls us."



A messenger arrives, delivering a message to Piccola before departing.

Nigel blinks in surprise at Noah's words, his brows lifting at that as he thinks over the man's words for a moment. His fingertips drum against his cheek for a moment before he says, "Just to make sure that I am understanding your meaning here, Prince Noah... You are saying that in the case of the situation I spoke of earlier regarding Grayson's own elevations of commoner to nobility... or ANY such example... the correct response in those cases would be for the commoner to refuse the offer of nobility? And the sole responsibility for whether this situation is positive or negative lays at the feet of the commoner being offered lands and a title, and none on the house that chooses to elevate?" He circles back, "In the case I spoke of earlier, I don't believe that Baron demanded anything but was instead offered nobility as a reward?"

"I assume you're referring to the origins of the Great Houses, which I do well know," Cesare says dryly. "But as I said. There are many whose blood carries profound gifts throughout all spectra of the class systems. Some who are slaves in other nations. Many among us, to be sure. And you speak of entitlement - I felt entitlement to nothing. I begged for crumbs in the streets, and is that where you would have had me stay? Starving on the streets of Setarco? It's true that I have no aspirations toward nobility, but as a Whisper I am nonetheless removed from the average commoner as much as many nobles are. Should I have been happy to live and die in squalor, too?"

Noah glances towards Piccola. "There you go, making a pointed statement, not a general one." He tsks lightly. "I am inviting nothing, if you used your ears, you would have heard me say I was not looking for anarchy." He nods to that. "Enough of personal attacks though, yes? Yours got met by mine and we are done?"

Noah shakes his head. "Human suffering is not the question. Your comment has nothing to do about a neo-noble being a noble. If somoene is starving we should of course, seek to feed them. That is just humanity (or the Arx equiv) not that of nobility or lack of nobility. When it comes to war, there is a battlefield that comes with a different set of classes, /General/." He looks back to Nigel. "I think I have informed you once that I am not going to talk specifics like we were asked not to. So you do not understand any of my words except how you wish to hear them. I said nothing about what they should do or what they should choose. That is on you and your own drawing of conclusions of words I never uttered. Perhaps you should cease asking for specifics?"

"I believe what Prince Noah speaks of is established Hierarchy." Alistair rumbles out, peering once more at the man. "And he feels Neo-Nobility threatened such hierarchy and the good and structure it provides?" The High Inquisitor, Prodigal Prince of Velenosa muses.

Titus steps up after giving a brief set of words to those near him and excuses himself to leave.

Titus has left the scattered chairs in various elegant styles.


"It is easy to support a hierarchy when you benefit directly from it."

The General looks like she wants to continue on that thread, but something draws her attention near where she's sitting.

She sits herself back down, and apparently disengages.


Nigel's brows lift again and he says, "No... I asked a question of you to clarify what you /were/ saying. What your feelings were on the responsibility of the commoner to be when offered nobility. That is the way this is supposed to work, isn't it?" This last question he turns toward Katarina and Denica as those who seem to be in charge of the meeting. "Is this not a space that open conversation is encouraged? Or are we just to hear one side of this from the Prince and conversation is not encouraged?"

Denica is a delicate thing but when she speaks, she is use to doing so for a crowd. It's direct, firm and yet gentle all the same. "To clarify what I said earlier, we want to ensure that folks are not attacking each other. I would suggest refraining from words like 'you', when making a point. Rather, if you are referring to a group of people, to do so. As points may involve historic examples, people may refer to specific situations, so long as it's done respectfully and appropriately." Denica breaths in and out, "That said, no one can force anyone to answer a question if they do not want to. Those are your choices." Denica looks around, "just don't attack each other, respect each other while you are in this room. What you do when you leave it," the princess shrugs, "not my concern." Denica looks at Katarina, as the Head of The Salon as though checking that this appropriate. Then she looks around at everyone to make sure they are clear.

"If your highness would stop insulting and browbeating the people who are rebutting him, perhaps the Salon would be a much more pleasant and productive environment." Cesare raises an eyebrow. "I was directly responding to your comment that one ought to be happy with one's position as they are born. Rarely does anyone not seek to improve their station in some way. You are marrying an Archduchess of Velenosa; a farmer in the Oathlands might seek more land. It is entirely the same concept, ennoblement. Wanting to improve one's lot in life. Human suffering is always part of the question, as part of the oaths one takes as a liege is to do right by their vassals, to not let those they are responsible for suffer. Or perhaps his highness isn't as widely-versed in what nobility means as he claimed?"

Cesare steeples his fingers. "Regardless - the Compact grows. Its citizenry expands. How do we propose to rule these new people and new lands? Spread the peerage thin here?" He spreads his hands. "As for the established hierarchy; there is such immense wealth and power collected within the Great Houses of Arvum and their vassals... diluting it somewhat could not possibly cause such a threat." The unspoken 'unless' is obvious.

Samantha has fallen silent again, her features remaining neutral, looking decidedly unprovoked. "I doubt any commoner who has had the responsibility of nobility thrust upon them feels /entitled/ to it," she says soberly, before rising from her chair and pulling her hood over her head. "If you will excuse me." She turns and makes her way toward the door, her various guards peeling away from the walls to follow her.

Pasquale eases to his feet and murmurs "Excuse me." before heading for the door.

Orland looks toward Noah, taking a long steadying breath, "You asked why I would not stay a commoner or work toward knighthood as a commoner? I believe, my story would be too specific to answer in the general 'we' fashion. In short, the circumstances of my choices led me to a decision to support the one person who picked me out of the gutter." He gestures, "So I think, circumstances like we've spoken of, can be the cause for rise to nobility, as has been done for generations. Simply ending the opportunity to raise someone to better themselves for 'fear' ... makes us weak to our enemies." He rises up with a gasp of breath, "This is not a matter of changing one's mind, in particular, Prince Noah's mind, but this is about changing the perception that many like the Prince share." He puts out there, "The reality is we won't change their minds until we've established our own legacies... isn't that right, Your Highness?" he looks to Noah, then back to the room, "Though be aware, many neo-noble houses were established after the Silent War. It'd be a detriment to the Compact not to embrace them when we have giant centipedes ripping through cities. Our blood, as common as it is, can be as strong and fierce when up against things that will consume us all." He follows behind Pasquale and Titus. Hobble.

Judge, Kessi, a big-eared, fuzzy fennec fox, 7 House Deepwood Guards leave, following Samantha.

Noah lifts his left brow to Cesare and looks at Denica to that first part. There is a look of expectation before he looks back to him. "I have yet to insult or browbeat people unless they are putting words in my mouth, Whisper." The Whisper is a more respectful comment then a sneer or anything. Like Milord. "How does being a neo-noble stop suffering? Explain that to me." He glances at Alistair when he speaks and nods. "In sorts, yes."

"I can think of at least one person who is now a neo-noble who fed the Lowers from his own pockets during the famine when noble houses failed them," Cesare replies with some amusement. "How does it stop suffering? Perhaps by being closer to it, your highness. When was the last time you ate food from the trash because you had to, or slept in the doorstep of a home because it was the only place you could find shelter? Certain experiences have a way of engendering empathy."

Pasquale has left the scattered chairs in various elegant styles.

Alberico, the Malespero aide, Louis, a Malespero Armsman, Mar, the Magpie leave, following Pasquale.

Alistair only rumbles out a contemplative sound. Its hard to tell if he disagrees or agrees, or is otherwise discontent with the discussiona s it is proceeding. Orland though earns a look from him as he speaks of Giant Centipedes. There is no shift in his maskless expression, but he expresses something wordless at that commentary.

Alistair checks composure and intimidation at normal. Alistair is successful.

Denica draws in another breath, letting it out slowly, her attention bouncing from person-to-person. "I think we are starting to go down rabbit holes and are getting into conversations that might be best saved for another time. I think we'd do well to bring the conversation back in a bit," she suggests. "I've heard people talk about the frequency of ennoblement, the term itself and there's been some conversation around what it means to be noble, and the difference of being noble and being a Noble." Denica presses her lips together, "do people have any thoughts on the criteria that is used for making the decisions? Do you think there is consistency across the Houses?"

Alistair checks composure and intimidation at hard. Alistair fails.

Cesare checks composure and performance at normal. Cesare is successful.

Orland hobbles out, turning a look back as Denica draws the conversation back around but he's tired... but not tired enough to miss the look from Alistair. OH haiiiiii. Orland snaps his attention back to limping cast-hobbling crutch walking out.

Soot, a gray foxhound puppy, 2 Iron Guardsmen, Violet, a shopkeeper, Briar, a young Oakhaven black and tan bloodhound, 2 Keaton Huntsmen leave, following Petal.

Orland has left the scattered chairs in various elegant styles.

Philippe leaves, following Orland.

Noah seems content for now to drink his wine. He lounges back as he drinks as he waits for the other comments to start on this.

There is a smile from Nigel and minute shake of his head at Noah's latter comment regarding people putting words in his mouth. Offering a smile and nod toward those others in the room, he rises and says, "Thank you all for the evening of conversation. It has been enlightening." With that he turns and follows the others out.

Nigel has left the scattered chairs in various elegant styles.

Phillip, 2 House Riven Soldiers leave, following Nigel.

Cesare catches sight of that look and doesn't so much as bat an eyelash in response. "Yes, Princess Denica, the opaque nature of most ennoblements was a subject at the earlier discussion hosted by Duke Hadrian as well. It was agreed that many of the assembled would appreciate elucidation on what particular acts of devoted service and exemplary morality the ennobled had performed to be considered worthy."

Noah offers to Jordan, "Look up elucidation." Then he takes another drink of his wine and watches.

Denica nods her head slowly, "well, in the spirit of elucidation," it's a beautiful word, isn't it? "What do folks here tonight think about that? What particular acts would folks here consider of exemplary morality, that might be considered worthy of ennoblement?" she asks generally.

Noah opens his mouth but then just takes a drink. EVERYONE knows his answer to that by now. Thus, he's just looking over people and then Jordan offers something in his ear.

Noah is overheard praising Cesare: Because why couldn't he just say clarification? He had to use the big words. Well, I guess it makes him a good Whisper.

Noah is overheard praising Denica: She stemmed off most the attacks.

Noah is overheard praising Alistair: The Look. That is all.

Alistair departs as he arrived. Without a word and with a brief glance to all those in attendance. Ominous.

A new arrival to the salon enters. Petra is actually heard before she is seen. The sound of soft chimes, not obnoxious or loud, but the rather soft sound almost as water washing over rocks can be heard. Stepping inside, she looks around with her dark gaze and a pleasant expression. Hearing the discussion has continued, Petra makes her way to find a comfortable seat, bells silencing as she settles into place.


The General and her cousin apparently rise from where they sit in the far back.

But not to say anything. Rather, she stands, and offers Katarina her arm. Once she has that, she nods to Denica as a way to indicate that she and her entourage are now leaving.

She says no more.



Katarina takes Piccola's arm. She looks to Denica, and mouths the words: 'You did amazing' -- or at least, something so close to those words that it could be mistaken for them. And if that's the case, let's just make that mistake.

Piccola has left the tiered benches ringing The Forum.

Yuri has left the tiered benches ringing The Forum.

Bartolomeo, protege of Signora Lauretta Tessere leaves, following Yuri.

Katarina has left the tiered benches ringing The Forum.

A dutiful Valardin aide, 2 Valardin Knights leave, following Katarina.

Yuri, Katarina leave, following Piccola.

It's not lost on Denica that when she tries to bring the conversation on track, half the room leaves to follow the others that left en masse earlier. The young Thrax has spent years hiding her emotions and so she continues to do so. Fingers laced in front of her, she breathes out slowly. "I think sufficient to say, the formal part of the evening has concluded. That you all for participating," Denica offers with a rehearsed smile. "If folks want to continue chatting and enjoying pi... watered down wine, please do. If you are interested in future events, I am sure there will be. The building is still standing." That's all she ever promised.